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The Doctors Who Give No Medicine With Dr. Jeff Hannah

4 years ago

Upper cervical health care has given hope to many who are suffering from pain and discomfort. Today, Dr. Kevin Pecca interviews Dr. Jeff Hannah about his practice and his influences in upper cervical chiropractic. Dr. Hannah introduces his book, The Doctors Who Give No Medicine: The science and results of Upper Cervical Spinal Care, which highlights some real experiences of people who were given hope. Listen to Dr. Hannah as he dives into upper cervical health care and also touches on thermography.


Listen To The Episode Here

The Doctors Who Give No Medicine With Dr. Jeff Hannah

Upper Cervical Health Care

Dr. Jeff Hannah is a Blair Upper Cervical Chiropractor out of Australia. He wrote a very powerful book called The Doctors Who Give No Medicine, which talks about the miracles and amazing results of upper cervical healthcare. Dr. Jeff is one of my personal favorite upper cervical doctors and is very well respected in the upper cervical field. He also is an expert in thermography, which is a tool that chiropractors use to measure nerve interference in the spine. Dr. Hannah’s life story starts in Canada and his family moved to America. He then followed his intuition and dream of moving to Australia. Dr. Hannah has some great upper cervical stories. It’s a true honor and pleasure of having him on the show. Please welcome, Dr. Jeff Hannah.


We have a very special guest all the way from Brisbane, Australia, Dr. Jeff Hannah. Dr. Hannah, how are you?

I’m doing well, Dr. Pecca. How are you?

I’m doing well. I’m very excited to have you here. You are a very renowned Blair Upper Cervical doctor in the community. It was great being at the seminar with you. I learned a lot and it was great to finally meet you in person.

It was definitely great to catch up. I had said to a few people there that it’s strange as you have people that you’ve either seen their videos online these days or you’ve listened to their podcasts and you feel like you’re getting together with a bunch of friends that you’ve never met before.

Dr. Hannah, where are you from originally?

I’m in Australia. I’m originally from Canada. I was born there and then grew up in Canada for twelve years and then moved to the US. I lived there until I was 25 so I was there for thirteen years. No joke, I have now been in Australia for several years.

What part of Canada where you from?

I lived on the West Coast in the Vancouver area.

That’s beautiful over there.

You should hear me a lot more when you go back and see it as a tourist.

Were you excited to move to America or have you wanted to stay put in the Vancouver area?

No, it was very exciting. In brief, my dad, who’s also a chiropractor, he had a shoulder injury and it was threatening him in practice. It turns out that there was a teaching position that opened up in a little place called Hammond in Davenport, Iowa. It was a chance for something new, something exciting and we looked forward to it.

Is your father an Upper Cervical Chiropractor or just in standard chiropractic as well?

He is always a full-spine chiropractor. That was pretty much the way that he practiced all the way through. However, when he came to Palmer, they needed somebody to help out with the Atlas Orthogonal elective and then teaching it, overseeing the students in the clinic. They said, “New guy, you’re up. Can you work?” That was his introduction into it. He did develop a certain rapport for it, an appreciation. He did apply it to the different kinds of work that he was still doing.

Did that transcend down to you? The upper cervical work, is that how you got into it?

Kind of. Being a second-generation chiropractor, you don’t understand that there are all these different techniques and methods until you go to school and then you find out that people have different opinions than this. I always thought that I was going to be practicing the same way as my dad, which was going to be full-spine, manual, all of this sort of stuff. My mom had been under AO care and she was doing better than she had otherwise. She appreciates it. I figured this is important for me to learn. I picked it up going through school but then just a few things as they will sometimes do along the way, they will change your perspective a little bit more. I realized, “I have got to go down this path and understand it.”

What gravitated you to that thought?

That one is very easy. There are a couple of things. One of them stuck in my head. I remember sitting in Strauss’ Palmer Upper Cervical Toggle recoil in fourth try. He said something to the effect of, “One of these days, it’s going to be shown that the upper cervical approach is going to be the one that’s going to help to validate these premises of what we believe in chiropractic.” I remembered that for some reason. This is the actual story as far as what threw me in headfirst. I had already finished doing all of my clinic rotations and it’s maybe a week or two before graduation. It’s a Monday morning, I’m over at the gym doing a bit of a workout and taking it nice and easy after working hard all those years.

I get a call from my dad who’s over in the clinic and he says, “Jeffrey, can you come over and help us do an emergency upper cervical X-ray series?” I was working as a bluecoat, which means I was a RadTech in the school. I could help everybody do their X-ray setups. Long story short, I go over to the clinic and here’s a guy who is in a dark room. He’s got a bucket by his head. He’s had a splitting migraine the last few days. He can’t stand, he’s got drooping on his face, drooping on his body, all of the nasty, scary things like that. He had had somebody crack his neck the week before. He’d been to the hospital already. They did the CT and the MRI and they said something to the effect of, “There’s nothing wrong with you, go home.”

One of his buddies who was going through chiropractic school a few years or so behind me, he brought him in and said, “Can we do something?” My dad and a few of the other chiropractors did the full out neurological exam thinking, “This looks like a stroke but this is not. Something is not right with his neck.” What we did was somehow or another, we got them downstairs. We managed to get a series of X-rays done to figure out what was going on with his neck. It’s funny because the other intern who has taken care of him had never done any upper cervical courses before. He was just the student on rotation. I’m feeling a little queasy about this like, “What are we doing?” He was green, so it was funny but it was scary at the same time. My dad does the adjustment and he sits the guy up.

An AO adjustment?

It was an atlas orthogonal adjustment. He’s lightly palpating the back of the neck and you can hear there’s an audible palpation following the AO adjustment. The guy is almost immediately saying, “I’m not feeling sick. I am able to see straight again.” This guy was twenty years old. This is not your typical kind of person where if you’re thinking, is this person having a stroke following a chiropractic manipulation or an adjustment or something like that? This was a twenty-year-old guy. He lies him down and 30 minutes later, he walks out of the clinic as if nothing had happened. Here I am and I considered myself a smart person going through school. I was pretty much at the top of the class but I also joked with chiropractic students saying I was a bad student because I missed out on so many of the different experiences that so many people got to do by seeing this speaker, that speaker.

If you’re a student reading this, that’s my one bit of advice. Don’t skip on that. That’s important. I was fortunate because I knew where to go back and get it. I am thinking, “I’m a pretty smart guy. I’m about to graduate as a doctor.” Life says, “You think you’re so smart. Here.” After all of those years for me to say, “What just happened?” I didn’t have an answer for that. My introduction as far as I need to do this atlas or this upper cervical specific work was because of a person like me as the patient experienced it but because of something that I got to see. I consider myself very fortunate that on this particular day, at the right time, everything aligned and said, “This is the path that you are supposed to go.”

Jeff, I’m putting this together. Did you write the book The Doctors Who Give No Medicine?


I read that book and I was like, “This sounds so familiar.” The doctor was in Australia. I’m putting that together. That’s a great book.

Thank you. Don’t ask me when I had the time to put that together. I have given away the entire story of the book pretty much right there. That is my story, this is my introduction, but then also giving people a lot of background then to fill in the holes. What were the lessons that I learned after that? How did that happen? What does it mean and how is this something that can help so many other people?

There are about 7 or 8 upper cervical avenues you can go down. You didn’t know much about how to apply the upper cervical work at that point. Where did you go from there?

I’ve done it all the silly way. I never practiced in Canada. I considered US my home. I grew up in Davenport but as anybody who can appreciate, if you’ve lived in the Quad Cities for any length of time, there comes a point where you just want to get out. That was where I was at that point in my life. I never practiced in the US. I moved immediately to Australia, did my boards over here and then set up a practice as an associate. There was somebody who was looking at doing a bit of AO so that gave me the opportunity to get my feet wet. The way that I’ve been able to learn so much of what I have, unfortunately, has not been with having somebody to be able to look over my shoulder all the way. It’s been through reading books, watching videos, and then fortunately, having good people that I can send emails to ask these different kinds of questions as we go along.

Why did you pick Australia?

For lack of a better description, when I was a student, the voice inside your head says you’re supposed to go to Australia. I knew what the worst-case scenario would have been if I didn’t try and then a couple of years later wondering what if. It was one of those few points in my life where I said, “Let’s give it a go.”

Jeff, what is the chiropractic culture like in Australia? They have a good number of schools over there. It’s popular.

I would say overall, it’s very similar to other places in the world. The utilization is pretty similar. People would go to the chiropractor for the same kinds of general reasons. If they think that they have back pain, neck pain and then they’re going to “crack them into place.” There are four schools that are having chiropractic programs. In 2020, there’s going to be a brand new one, which is going to be based on New Zealand, the Sherman. That’s going to be a big deal for chiropractic here in Australia. It’s in the same general pockets you have. People absolutely love it. Other people will say, “What’s that for?”

You were studying AO, how did you gravitate towards Blair Upper Cervical Chiropractic?

I’m going to be honest about something first. Only a few people know this story. The first time I ever saw a Blair adjustment, I thought to myself, “This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. This is a toggle recoil with ridiculous flare. What is the point of that? That is just crazy.” That was my original introduction to Blair. I had been in practice and doing AO work with other different things but founding more and more, I was doing the upper cervical specific work. There was a certain problem that I was encountering doing AO. Number one, it was when you were having to “fudge” the numbers. I’ve done the analysis, “Why is this person not clearing properly? They’ve got this weird, bony shape. What is that? What do we do about that?”

The second reason was that I had a lot of people who had this sore spot at the C2 and C3. This was not atlas but this was a problem that, at that time, I understood was an issue between the occiput and C2. I wasn’t finding it AO was clearing it and I had to use a different adjustment. The third reason was that my table was starting to play up just a little bit. I had a very serious question of concern that if I’m not capable of adjusting by hand, then what? As for me to purchase a new table and to get it shipped and imported into Australia, I’d be looking at the better part of around $25,000 plus the lost hours of practice not being able to do your craft. That was scary to me.

Fortunately, at pretty much the exact same time because there had only ever been a few AO seminars here in Australia, I took full advantage of those whenever I could. Dr. Graham Dobson, he’s the Head of Technique over at the New Zealand school for years. He was hosting an Upper Cervical Symposium where he invited over a number of different speakers, including Dr. Forest and Dr. Hall. I had the opportunity to go over and meet them for the first time. I was curious because I knew that Blair was a “mixer group” because they looked at C3. In other words, they might have an answer for this weird C2/C3 thing that I am finding.

In watching Dr Forest’s presentation, this is after I had already finished the first edition of that book, Doctors That Give No Medicine, I’m sitting there thinking, “I’ve just finished the book. I know what I’m talking about.” He starts showing me these weird X-ray views and describing the biomechanics and I’m thinking, “I missed the most fundamentals of all of this.” He goes up and he puts one of those X-rays up. Prior to that, for me, subluxation was a dirty word. Number one, a lot of people don’t understand the word and they misuse it. Second to that, you could always see the manifestations of it but you could not see the thing. To see that on the images and say, “That is the thing that I have been looking for, where do I sign up? I need to learn this.”

Is there a way that the AO people can put the instrument to C2/C3 to make a correction or it wouldn’t work?

I tried that. This is one of the blessings and also one of the curses when you don’t have the mentor looking over your shoulder saying, “This is not a good idea.” When you start getting all of these different ideas and they can go relatively unchecked and they may be fine on paper but then you find when applying them that it doesn’t quite work. In the Atlas Orthogonal Community, I know that the attempt is that what you’re going to be doing is elevating, depressing or rotating the shoulder in order to bring the spine and the body to tension. What I had found, at least from personal trial, was that if the C2 is part of the normal compensatory pattern from the C1 misalignment, it will reduce. However, if it is it’s own independent entity, then it won’t. You’re going to have to then go with some other approach if that’s going to be able to correct. If you were to set it up directly on C2, I never found that that would work.

How did you end up getting a crash course in Blair Upper Cervical Chiropractic being on Australia? Dr. Forest is going back home. Did you learn from Dr. Dobson?

It’s a little bit of everybody. In Australia at that time, there’s somewhere between about 4,000 and 5,000 actively practicing chiropractors in Australia. There were maybe ten who did any form of Upper Cervical specific. There were two of them who were doing Blair. By dumb luck, one of them was one hour North of me in a country that is the same size as the continental US. What I had the opportunity to do was to go and meet him. This was also at the time where the Blair society had published their first tech DVD and they had just published the manuals. My introductions to it was being able to watch the videos, read the notes and go through it that way. Visit with the doctor north of me and then bombard all of the Blair doctors that I could with question after question.

Jeff, you are the go-to guy in thermography. What is thermography? Why do chiropractors use it and what made you dive so deeply into it?

Can I give you a little bit of back story again in the longest possible way?


Here is another one of those things going through chiropractic schools. I had a rather horrific experience using thermography. I hated it. I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. I’m not using this. There’s no way I’m using this. I had one of my instructors who said at one point, he used to think the same way and then this one I do have his quote stuck and burdened my head. He said that when I finally learned how to use it, the information that I got from it, he quote, “You will take this from me from my cold, dead hands.” With regards to thermography, I figured out, “I’ll start using this because everybody says that they’re going to have to use it.” The problem is I couldn’t read it. That’s the issue that I oftentimes will say for doctors is we’re told that this is a very important tool, but a tool no matter how valuable it is, it’s useless unless you know how to use it. It was Dr. Kessinger and the KC UCS. I took their course on the pattern analysis and found, “This is amazing. Where has this been?”

For all of the non-chiropractors out there, what is thermography? Thermography is the measurement of heat. Why would a chiropractor look at heat in the body? Heat is going to be controlled by your autonomic nervous system. The nervous system, as a general rule, it’s going to have three categories of nerves. It’s got the sensory ones, which are the things that you can feel. It’s got the motor ones, which lets you consciously move your body. It’s got the autonomic fibers. The autonomic ones are the ones that control all of the stuff that goes on in your body that you don’t even have to think about. It’s the part that keeps you alive and well. There are specific kinds of these autonomic fibers which are called sympathetic nerves. Sympathetic nerves go to every blood vessel in the body. You can imagine, if you’ve ever seen one of those pictures of, “This is what a human being would look like if we took all the skin and the muscles away.” You can still see their outline with all of their arteries.

Every single place that you have one of those, you’ve got one of these sympathetic nerves and amongst other things that it does is it regulates your blood vessel dilation. It does so very tightly. The spine is supposed to have a temperature that is the same plus or minus about a third of a degree Celsius on either side. When you start dealing with imbalances greater than half of a degree Celsius and if you get towards one degree Celsius, that is a measurable sign that something in your body, in the autonomic nervous system is not working the way that it should be. Left unchecked, that can lead to a variety of different health conditions. As a chiropractor, what we’re doing is by looking at the heat, we’re using it as an indirect measure to say, “What is the overall nerve activity? Is it within the normal limits or not?” Second to that, what we’re looking for is we’re looking to see, is it always changing? This is the analogy I’ll always give. Let’s say I had a pair of dice and I threw six, six, six, six, six. How many times would I have to do that, Dr. Pecca, before you start getting suspicious?

About 2 or 3.

About three. You’re talking about 90%, 95% odds that something is not working right that I’m up to something shady. The same thing, if you get the exact same readings or the exact same findings over and over, your body neurologically is stuck in a rut. Something is also not working right. What we’re looking at is when we would make some spinal adjustment, we’re looking to see, number one, can we get a change? Number two, does that change start to move towards the normal? Those persistent abnormal findings that things start to get better. We’re not simply relying on a day-to-day basis, how are you feeling? For example, if you’re out in the middle of the ocean and all that you have is a compass and a life raft, the ocean, no matter which way you look, is going to look the same. You need the compass to know which way do you have to go to get to dry land.

We use it as an objective measure to determine which way is a person going. Is their nervous system becoming more balanced or are they going in the wrong direction and they’re getting worse? That’s the use of thermography in a nutshell. Since learning how to read the thing properly, I’ve been fascinated by it and again, wondering where was this information so much when I could have used it way back in the day. I have since developed own protocols based on that and based on having spoken with a number of different other doctors here at this point so that the next generation of chiropractors can have confidence in, number one, if they’re going to invest in the instrumentation like that so that they can do so knowing, “I can read this thing.”

Dr. Hannah, are people actively searching out upper cervical care in Australia or is it still a pretty newfound concept to people and they’re still wondering what it is?

Yes. Part of it without getting too much into the history, the only little bit of upper cervical that most of the time the schools here in Australia have taught is a brief introduction to a toggle recoil. It’s more of the idea that this is simply a different way of adjusting the atlas, but you can use any way of adjusting the atlas, it doesn’t matter. By and large, I don’t think that people are aware too much of the upper cervical approaches. It’s usually when, as you and I both know, the people have been dealing with the chronic ailments where they have gone to practitioner A, B, C, but there’s something that’s still not quite right. They do their online research and they come across a forum or they come across a paper or some information or something like that says, “Have you seen on upper cervical practitioner? If so, these are some of the common things that could be associated with it. It might be worth having a look to see if your atlas is probably aligned.

What kind of cases do you see in your office and what do you see getting better?

It’s the common ones that so many of the upper cervical people see. The chronic headaches and the migraines that aren’t responding through any of the other things that “we think should work.” Vertigo is a big one, TMJ, jaw disorders, the neuralgia, trigeminal neuralgia in particular. These are most of the chronic musculoskeletal conditions there.

I had a personal question about the thermography that sometimes many people, they’re in a world of pain but their thermographic pattern is straight. It’s not too bad. It’s not all over the board. Have you ever had any patients where if you look at the bar graph, it shows up all green on the first scan? How do you feel about the bar graph? Do you use it? Do you show it to patients? It can and cannot be a good measurement of exactly what’s going on because if it’s already too straight, you make an adjustment that works. It could veer off. It could make the bar graph look worse but that person can be neurologically adapting better.

What I say to chiropractors if they’re looking at the thermography instrument, is you need to be able to read the lines. A cardiologist needs to be able to read what an EKG says and then a brain surgeon or whoever would be looking at an EEG, they need to know what the squiggly lines mean. The bar graphs are fine for patient education, but the doctor needs to know more than that. You’re absolutely right, there can be times where the person’s bar graph may look 100% normal, but there’s an issue going on. There are other times you might make an adjustment but because the body has kicked up in muscle activity, then it’s going to look, “That’s worse afterward.” It’s like, “No, it’s because this is the change.” That’s part of the interpretation of that. Unless you have discovered something that I have not, do you believe that there is such a thing as a 100% infallible measure of anything that has to do with a human being?

No. We are all definitely wired differently and it’s very complicated and we’re only scratching the surface.

There are a lot of things that have more reliability validity than others, but there is no such thing as absolute. Let’s consider a couple of things here. This one answers the question that you had. What do you do if a person is in pain but the scan is straight? Are we talking their scan never showed anything in the first place or their scan is straight but they’re still in pain? Their scan was originally squiggly.

We’re talking about the first visit, first scan, they’re telling you they have all these neurological issues going on and the bar graph is for sure green. They might have a little hook at the top, but it’s still green. When you do that adjustment, you do a post-scan. In my mind, I’m like, “I’m not going to be making that look much better.” When I do at the adaptation but it swings out a certain way, I’m thinking to myself, “Was that good or bad? It’s swinging out.”

I’ll answer that in my usual horrific fashion. This one here is an advanced thing but that there will also be some of your general audience who can appreciate this. It’s the idea of a false negative. You remember what I had said that there are three kinds of nerves: the sensory, the motor and the autonomic. Is it possible that a person could have an issue in their body coming from their upper neck that so happens to be affecting the sensory in the motor but not the autonomic? If so, the autonomic test will show as being normal, but they are clearly not. It’s one of the reasons, you and I both know because we do the Blair work, we do multiple tests including where we’re looking at the posture, muscle tone and all that. We’re reading different aspects of a person’s neurology. Second to that is the idea of a false negative. Have you ever had anybody where on the surface “everything looks normal,” but you know something on the inside is not? It’s almost as if there are two waves of distortion, one with the peak at the top on one side and the other with the peak of the other. You put the two of them overlap. What they do is they neutralize making each other one look skewing.

The same thing can happen to a large degree with a person’s neurology. They can have so many different layers of things that the body can’t even produce that abnormal response. When they are starting to “get healthier,” what you expect to see as you expect to see them go skewy. I notice in part from doing the orthogonal work, some people you would do your analysis or you would do some posture analysis and you’d say, “Your head is on straight, your shoulders are level, your balance is level.” It’s because what’s happened is everything is collapsed and compressed down. If you’re going to unspiral that person, however you’re going to do it, what you need is to see them release open like a spring, which means that for a time being, things are going to go skewy in one direction before ultimately in the long-term, we would expect them to come back to midline. That requires for the doctor to have an understanding of what is going on and to consider the deeper array of possibilities instead of making the assumption, “The test says that everything is fine, so I’m going to turn my brain off and stop thinking about what’s going on here.”

It’s extremely humbling work, the upper cervical work. The minute you think you have it all figured out, it will come up and punch you in the face and you will you go back to square one like, “There’s a lot to learn.”

Don’t even talk to me about the number of times where I’ve done that. Even the second that you even think, “I’m finally starting to get a little bit better at this,” life says, “You think that you’re so smart now. Here, deal with this and then this will occupy you and it will become your obsession.” It is both a blessing and a curse because ultimately I think that through our struggles as doctors, it’s what allows us to understand and to be able to help so many other people. That’s very true of people where they have had their own health challenges. Oftentimes the question is, “Why me? Why is this happening?” It’s assigning meaning if it isn’t there, but it’s nevertheless our ability to provide meaning, that through our experiences that we’re able to make a difference for people in their own lives as hard as that can be sometimes for us.

Dr. Hannah, what is the upper cervical network like in Australia? Can you go all around the country and get solid upper cervical care everywhere in all the big cities or is it still sporadic?

No, it’s quite very sporadic. There is still only the better part of around 12 to 15 people who are doing that, the specific kind of upper cervical work especially here in Australia. There are maybe only a couple of people that I have not personally met and it’s because they’re very far away. Every one of us knows each other by name, by our reputation. In the US, there can be a lot more of the technique side of it. It’s like, “Do you do NUCA? I do Blair,” “I do the knee-chest and I do orthogonal work.” Here in Australia, there are so few doctors doing any of it that that conversation doesn’t even matter. We have our preferences for whatever reason that would be. If a person is down in this part of the country, I’m going to say, “Go see them.” We have a good chunk of blank spots.

Out of those approximately twelve, that’s going to be Sydney. I’m not going to get the numbers exactly right but I’m going to say to somewhere between around 3 or 5 people in the Sydney area doing it. There are three of us up in the Brisbane area. There’s a doctor out in Perth, there’s a couple south of Sydney and then you’re looking at pretty much it. From where I am in practice all the way up to Cairns, which is going to be the better span of around a thousand miles, nobody. Melbourne, which is a city of between 3 million and 4 million, nobody. All of these other ones, the cities here in Australia, they’re not as big as they are in the US but you still have a huge percentage of people where they’ve got to come up a long way if they’re going to find somebody who’s doing any of the different forms of upper cervical work. Not just myself, but a few doctors here have been doing good groundwork over years and years to get more of this established here. It has been a challenge, no doubt about that.

Where can people find you on like your websites, any social media or anything like that where they can look you up?

As all of us are these days, we are omnipresent. We are everywhere. The website is If you look up Atlas Health or Atlas Health Australia, look up my name. Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok and YouTube. The only one that I’m not on is Twitter.

Was moving to Australia getting up and going, one of the best decisions you ever made? Do you love it over there?

It was. I could go for a little bit more cold. The irony of the things that you never think that you would miss. I never thought that I would live to see the day where I would say, “I hope it rains.” “I like the snow. I wish it gets colder.”

Dr. Hannah, at the end of every episode, I like to ask all my guests, what is one piece of advice that has resonated with you over the years that you would like to gift the audience? It could be absolutely anything.

I’ll share something that’s a challenge for somebody like me. A person like me and you can ask my wife about this, about as analytical as they come. You want to know the who, what, when, where, how. Sometimes it can be very difficult than to be in touch with intuition because it’s not trustworthy. It requires you to go out a limb, it requires you to have faith, it requires that you stand up for something that doesn’t feel safe per se. It’s something that’s scary, something where it might not quite work out. Some people, it doesn’t faze them whatsoever. This one might be more for the people where you’ve got that intuitive, you’ve got that innate sense, but you don’t necessarily let it out. Give it permission. Is there the short of it? What I have found is that the greatest experiences in my own life have been when I’ve decided, “Let’s go out and have a bit of faith and trust in something when we don’t know.” Without a doubt, those had been the best experience. If I was going to have to say something is whatever that inner sense is for you, follow it and listen. It’s not necessarily easy but if you listen to it, it will lead you to a sense of fulfillment, place and purpose that nothing else would ever be able to satisfy.

Trust that belly barometer. Doc, thank you so much for coming on. I enjoyed this episode. Thank you for taking the time out, sharing your knowledge and wisdom. It was great to hear your story for the first time. Thank you so much.

Thank you, doc. Take care.

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