How To Break Sugar Addiction In 30 Days With Michael Collins

3 years ago

The serious effects of sugar addiction on individuals cannot be understated. It’s one of the key reasons why keeping a balanced diet can be so difficult. It messes up with bodily functions and causes systems to go haywire. Most insidiously, it’s almost impossible to resist with sheer willpower alone. In this episode, Michael Collins joins Dr. Kevin Pecca to teach you practical tips that you can apply to end sugar addiction in 30 days. Michael is the founder and CEO of SugarAddiction.com and Board Chairman of the Food Addiction Institute. Listen in as he shares some simple habits that you can change now so that you can free yourself from that sweet but insidious temptation.

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Listen To The Episode Here

How To Break Sugar Addiction In 30 Days With Michael Collins

Welcome to another episode. Subscribe for weekly episodes and content. You can also find me on Instagram at, @DrKevinPecca, Facebook, @MontclairUpperCervical, and my website, DrKevinPecca.com. If you have any questions or comments about the show, you can email me at DrKevinPecca@Gmail.com. We have another phenomenal episode. We have Michael Collins who was the author of The Last Resort Sugar Detox Guide which is the number one book in healthy living on Amazon. Michael is a sugar detox expert and has been sugar-free for over 30 years. He has dedicated his life to getting people off high inflammatory sugary diets and helping people regain their life and health. I was even surprised to hear what he had to say about fruit. Michael was very passionate about what he does, and I enjoyed our conversation about detoxing from sugar. He is changing a lot of lives and doing phenomenal work. Please welcome, Michael Collins.

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We have a very special guest, Michael Collins. He is the Founder of SugarAddiction.com. We have a great episode lined up for you. I love talking about sugar because it's such a hot topic. It is the root cause of a lot of inflammation these days. I'm excited to pick Michael's brain and see all the great work he's doing. Michael, how are you?

I’m well. Thanks for having me.

Mike, how does one get into this field? It seems like it's almost a passion of yours. How did you get started down this road of sugar detoxification?

I have the podcast version. It brings up more questions than answers. I grew up a regular kid. My mother was a sugar junkie. She didn't more than love it. She thought sugar was love. It’s a sad story but my grandmother, her mother died when she was eight years old, and they own the country store across the way. Anytime my mom walked into the store as a little girl, they would give her candy and she thought that was wonderful. It was a nice gesture for her father to do but she grew up thinking sugar was love for everyone and our household reflected that. We had literally unfettered access to the sugar bowl. We can put as much on our Cornflakes and our Cheerios as we wanted.

We were scraping out 1/2 inch of sugar with a thing at the end of the cereal bowl. She had a stash of the candy. We knew where it was. I had every candy you can imagine. There's a great video on YouTube for your audience. Eric Clapton, the great guitarist, is talking for 60 Minutes. Ed Bradley says, “Eric, this addiction thing, it started with heroin, right?” He says, “No. It started with sugar.” He said, “We were eating bread, butter, and sugars. I would eat bread, butter, and sugar sandwiches just to change my state.” Now, remember that part of it because it's important. As I move forward, as I said, as a kid, I had it all.

I used to have trading cards for candy. I'm not kidding. They had it back then. At about 14, 15, I ran into beer. I knew beer changed my state. I could talk to girls. I was a little shy. That is a different podcast. I'm sure. That party lasted until I was about 28 and I got sober. As soon as I got sober, I went right back to the sugar because I didn't eat much sugar when I was drinking. When I was getting sober, everybody did the same thing. They all gained 50 pounds. Luckily, I was healthy. I ran into a book called Sugar Blues at that time. I was trying to get healthy and I was thinking the same things about sugar. I was because eating a ton of it. I couldn't believe the amount that I was eating after I got sober.

What is your choice of food? Was it donuts, candy, or a little bit of everything?

I used to drink 16 oz. Mountain Dews, 6 or 8 of them a day. This is before energy drinks. It was also the highest caffeinated beverage on the market and everything else. Very rarely, I ate any real food. Mostly, I ate pasta, pizza, more candy, and more ice cream. Anyway, the one thing that came of that is I met my boy's mother and I somehow talked her into having kids sugar-free. No sugar in the womb, no caffeine, and no flour. Until they were six years old, they never had any sugar. They only had it once a month at outside birthday parties. We fought the Montessori schools. We fought everybody. We fought the parents and grandparents of kids. Everybody wanted to give our kids sugar because they thought we were depriving them. That experiment worked and we can talk about it if you like.

When your kids go to sleepover to other houses, did they ever get sugar? How would your kids react if that happened? Where they off the walls?

Their stomach aches and the whole thing. They got to understand it. By the time they were 7 or 8, they could explain it to the other folks and I didn’t want them to have it. People tried after they were six and even before without our knowledge. We couldn't even leave them at my father's house. He was the worst because he didn't believe it. They always said I should write a book about sugar. I went on to have a regular career. I have a business career and online stuff and whatever. Years ago, I published the book later. I bought the domain name SugarAddiction.com and I started producing the best information I could find out there.

It didn't help. I wrote the book and the whole thing. It helped a little. Some people got it. For the most part, until about a few years ago, when I started coaching one-on-one through Zoom like this in the forums and on Zoom meetings, it didn't take off because people needed that extra support. That brings us up-to-date. As I said, it brings up more questions than answers but that's the short version of how I got here.

Mike, when you were started doing the research, would you say it was about longer than ten years?

The research wasn't much 30 years ago when I raised the kids. It was that book and some other stuff. It was bothering me. Years ago, the research was not that great either. It accelerated in the last few years.

Michael, what kind of sugar are we talking about here? Are we talking about processed sugar, fructose, the sugar found in fruit? What exactly are we talking about?

I get it all the time and that's one of the main questions. For us, we've done thousands of these detoxes and what happens is a pattern develops. In the early days, it was because of the table sugar but we've come to believe through the science and continuous glucose monitors, a lot of different things for different people, once they get off the white process stuff, will crank their blood sugar up. We're talking fruit, fruit juice, dried fruit, grains, wheat, flour for sure. It is almost impossible to get off sugar without getting off flour as well.

Especially vegetarians, rice and oats are hard for them. If it turns to sugar in your blood and cranks your blood sugar, it's going to be a problem helping you get off what I call hard stuff, which is straight table sugar. The table sugar has two parts of the molecule for your audience. Half glucose and half fructose. It's the fructose that causes the problem why you can't get off. It's the glucose that's decimating your body, partially, the fructose, too, especially your liver. Everyone is unique but the short version is pretty much if you want to try and experiment with yourself, you got to try it all at the first time around.

The fructose is hitting that dopamine center in the brain like, “Give me more.”

That’s 100%. That's the thing that, in the last few years, the information has exploded. They've got MRIs where they slide people in and give them sugary drinks. The dopamine exposed. The MRI shows alcohol, heroin, or cocaine. It's the same. It lights up the brain the same. If you do a little bit of heroin, alcohol, pot, or cocaine, everybody in the United States average is pounding 22 teaspoons through their body a day. A regular big habit, 30 to 40 teaspoons a day. A Coke has got twelve teaspoons. They're pounding unbelievable amounts of sugar. They're never off the sugar. Their nucleus accumbens and their dopamine systems never get a break. It is always being manually manipulated. In scientific terms, what happens is its down-regulated standout. You have less of them. You don't know if your ability to feel pleasure and good is muted unless you're stimulating it with a substance. That causes problems and addiction.

Mike, how do you know if you have a sugar addiction? Somebody asked me, “Are you addicted to sugar?” I would definitely say no but with everything you're telling me, I'm definitely on the bandwagon with some of the things you're saying. How does one pinpoint if they do have a sugar addiction?

I always say if somebody ever makes it to SugarAddiction.com, they don't have to take the quiz. We've got a little quiz there but it's an internal thing. There are a bunch of symptoms and they do match up with the definition of addiction and its tolerance. You have to eat more for the same thing you can't go without, get withdrawal symptoms, get irritable, or hungry. People think it's hypoglycemic. They're like, “I got to eat now.” That's not real hunger. Real hunger does not feel like that. You can go a day without food and not even think about it if you're not on flour and sugar because we share our delivery system with whole food.

We have to eat sugar in order for it to do its thing. The body has tricked us into believing not that we need something sweet but we need a dopamine hit. If people are willing to examine it that way and say, “Am I hungry? Do I really need food?” They understand that. To answer your question, you usually know. The way to confirm is to try and go 30 days without it. If I told you to go 30 days without steak, you do it. People get a little strange, they don't want to take sugar away. They get the withdrawals. They can't seem to be able to commit to it because they always seem to be drawn back to it. To me, that's the definition of addiction.

With whole foods such as fruit, when people are detoxifying, do you try to have them stay away from the fruit or is fruit okay because It's got the natural sugar in it?

I get a lot of pushback on the fruit. The problem is that fructose, which we've been talking about, has been hybridized in fruit, fruit juices, and dried fruit for 300 years for sweetness, which is more fructose. Back in the day, we evolved for millions of years to have a little bit of those crab apples to have a little bit, if you ever got honey, which would be once every 1 or 2 years, or a little bit of the berries. Those old nasty berries you see on bushes. Not the big plump, beautiful blueberries. We never got that much fructose and fructose can only be processed in the liver. We have an epidemic of 5 and 6-year-old with fatty liver, which is an alcoholics disease because that's where the process of so much fructose.

That's all well and good. Everybody says it's got fiber, etc. What we find is people that’s unsure are eating fruit while they're trying to get off sugar are drawn back to the hard stuff. I call it the white powdered sugar, simply because of the fructose slam in both their liver and their nucleus accumbens. They're still keeping the cravings active or activated, so they want more and they find a harder time to get off it. What I ask folks to do is to go that 30, 60, or 90 days, and try it to experiment. They're not going to die without fruit for 30 or 60 days and then try and add it back. A lot of people can use low-glycemic blueberries or raspberries a little bit. Some people use it as their methadone, if you will. Their Suboxone to ease off of the powdered stuff. Fruit is tricky. There's a great video on YouTube on what fruit good for you by Dr. Gary Fettke. It explains that thing in pretty good depth.

What does the detox period look like? In terms of rehab, 3 to 4 weeks, you're clean and then some people relapse and all that. What's the proper way to detox? Another question I have for you, what do some of your clients’ experience when they do go 30, 60, 90 days without the sugar? What are some of the benefits they're getting?

The double part of the question is the benefits are crazy but the detox itself has succinct markers. We've done the pattern recognition on thousands of these detoxes. Everybody is a little bit different. If you've got a big habit, you can go 30 days in withdrawals. You could have serious physical withdrawals. These are people that’s usually 100 pounds overweight. They've never, in their life, let alone from the womb forward as a baby, they’ve given sugar and they've always managed their emotional management systems with sugar. They've never done it with exercise or anything else. Those folks take a little longer but the average person, 3 to 7 days, you're going through a nasty period then it gets a little bit better.

About 20 or 30 days in, you're in the mental game. This is where you think you got it because you're feeling good, you're losing some weight, your skin is looking a little better, your brain is cleared up, you're sleeping better, and a lot of good things are happening. Those are some of the benefits. This is famous, lure, or literature. There are thousands of studies about this that everybody who loses any significant amount of weight usually gains it all back in the first year. The CDC is not on the Biggest Loser contestants as well.

This is the crux of our work. It’s to understand that dopamine hit on the nucleus accumbens has been a way to manage your emotions instead of a walk, hug, run, yoga, or whatever. For literally since you were a baby until you change, understand, and make a new emotional management system. When you were a kid, you’d be crying. your mom would give you a cookie and send you to the TV or whatever. She was busy, she had meetings, and she had other kids. We trained ourselves to know that when we were hurting, scared, worried, or anxiety that we would self-medicate with sugar and it would put it off for a little bit. It's the process that people are not aware of. It takes a podcast to set it all up. I give you the physical and then hopefully, they come to understand that if they're honest and aware, and let’s say, they go into detox and then the third day, they're too crap nasty.

First of all, it should be at biggest big clue but then they eat a little sugar and it all goes away magically. They feel all right and they can go on with the day. I hate to draw the blatant analogy but out of the junkie, getting this fit fix. I've seen it over and over again, he says, “I felt terrible. I had sugar and I felt okay. Now, I get it.” It's that knowledge of having done it so many times. It's still pretty new. People are not accepting of these ideas yet because everybody is doing it. Everybody is using sugar but it's truly part cultural. It's in everything. It's on every celebration, and part individual. You've got to combine the two when you're trying to get off it.

Are some of the detox symptoms very similar to somebody withdrawing from drugs and alcohol?

Yes. I try to tell folks this is like nicotine. It's a nasty habit that will kill you. It won't kill you tomorrow but it will kill you over time. It's like a slow suicide like nicotine. It's very similar. Here's a true story. I told you I'm a recovering alcoholic for 35 years. My parents were alive a little while ago and I came up anonymous. I didn't tell anybody about my business career. It wasn't any other business. I believed in that thought process. When they passed away, I got to the point where I’ve seen a lot of people telling their story.

“If it helps one person get sober, I'm in.” I started telling my story online and partially in relation to the sugar stuff. I had this flood of people in recovery from alcohol and drugs, 5, 10, 15, 20 years. One of my coaches was twenty years sober. They couldn't put down the sugar. They're very savvy when it comes to addiction and that stuff but they because couldn’t put down the sugar. It's so insidious, everywhere, and accepted legally, morally, and ethically, you can give it to a one-year-old and no problems. We're at the early stages of a tectonic societal shift like seatbelts in cars, drinking and driving, or smoking. The science is now said, “This is not good. We need to change,” but not everybody is aware or awoke as the kids say.

What are some tools and tricks you give people after the detox to keep on the path? As you know, there are twelve-step programs for recovery and everything in drugs and alcohol. What do people do for the sugar?

It's very similar. I believe in the new tribe idea. I was the Chairman of the thing called the Food Addiction Institute once. The founders are still alive. He says this thing needs an inordinate amount of support. That's very similar to other addictions. A lot of times, no one in your family or spouse sometimes is not going to be onboard with this. You have to have some other kinds of support. Those online groups, we got Zoom meetings or forum with 7,000 people in it. It's at that new team, new group, new friends, new workmates, network-based, new homeys, people you hang with, and who believe in what you're doing.

You brought up an interesting point. What if somebody in the family is trying to detox from sugar and they're not the ones that make the meals and cook? That could be pretty difficult for them. What do you recommend in that situation?

We get it all the time. It's very normal. A lot of times, it's the mom who's detoxing or trying to quit. She's making food for a bunch of different people. Now, she's got to make all this other stuff and then vice versa where someone else’s making their food. It's not easy but it is doable. You can make your own food. There's a lot of things. Again, we're back to the family dynamic and the cultural dynamic of people genuinely in their heart and not in a bad way. They're not trying to be mean to you. They believe in moderation. They believe that, “Put the record books away. It's been 60 days, you've lost fifteen pounds, you look great. You can have a donut, don't get what is it crazy about this?”

It's not true. Biochemically, some folks cannot process this stuff without setting up severe cravings. That's about 1/3 of the population which tracks with the obesity numbers. Another 1/3 are what do we call harmful users. They've pushed it so much that now it caused a problem. They may or may not be able to go back to regular use. There's 1/3 who are normal people like alcoholic. Some people can have a drink and will leave one alone but some can. They're normal so we don't hate them.

I want to clarify, when I talk about right-sized body, it's not all about the body size. I've met an Olympic athlete, ultra marathoners, people that can do anything with their body, they could not put down the sugar. They knew what it was doing. As you say, inflammation-wise, into their brain, their sleep, and everything and they couldn’t put it down. You can be a very thin person and have a pretty bad sugar addiction.

Mike, what does a personal session look like with you? Where do you start? Do you have to have intake on what the person is eating every meal?

What I do is I go through their history, mostly. Graph their history, try and show them in black and white. There are other addictions if they have other addictions but the path of their sugar consumption and their dieting consumption. Our average is 6.8 but that's low. People are under four a little bit. When I start talking to people, they've tried 8 or 10 different diets. They've tried anything that's ever been written that says, “If you want to lose weight, quit, sugar and flour, and cut back.” They all say that they've tried but have they really? It all summed up by a woman who is now one of my coaches.

She started at weight watchers when she was sixteen with her mother. She was an illegal then she became a weight watchers’ leader and all that stuff. She could never get down past a certain weight. Now, she's in the right size body for her 5’8”, 125, or something like that. In her life, even when she was young lower than 150 or 160. It's not about the weight. When I asked her, “What changed?” She said, “I was above addiction. All those years, I read about it and I thought about it but I always said it wasn't me.” There is a stigma that does carry and we're early in the game for people understanding it. That's the hard thing. People got to accept a little bit.

What is SugarAddiction.com? What information are you giving everybody? What's on the homepage and what services are you giving?

You can get a copy of my book. It's on Amazon. You can buy it but we give it away for free now on the website. There's a big yellow book, The Last Resort Sugar Detox. We call it the last resort because of what I said, people have tried mostly everything. That's what I like to work with. I like to work with people who have tried everything else. They're frustrated and at the end of their rope. We've got a quiz there. See if you're a sugar addict and the biggest thing that's been the most successful and still is, is our 30-day challenge. You plug into the 30-day challenge, you get a video for me every day, and we've got all kinds of resources and meetings and stuff but that's the most successful part of our operation. There is the challenge. That gets them started. If they want more, they can have coaching on all those things, but they got to commit at least to see, “Can I make this for 30 days?”

You must inadvertently be solving a lot of health issues. What a lot of people come see me for are brain fog, chronic fatigue, and headaches. From detoxing from sugar, you see a lot of these things lift up.

There is no malady that I know of that we don't have a record of solving. Not one. Not that I can think of. From lupus, autoimmune, headaches, migraines, diabetes 2 in remission. Not from me. I didn't do it. They went to their doctor and the doctor says, “It doesn't appear that you have diabetes 2 anymore.” That's one of the things that people are the happiest about. We’ve got a saying that says, “We come for the vanity and stay for the sanity.” People think that they want to lose some weight. That's their main goal. They want a food plan and an exercise plan. I'm saying, it's only about 10% about the food. When they get to the other side, they realize they've never felt this damn good.

Especially people getting off SSRIs, anti-depressant medicines or whatever. There are always folks are the happiest because they've literally reclaimed their life. I have a personal belief and this is a little bit radical, but I do believe that after doing this work for so long, I’ve seen so many transformations that 80% to 90% of all maladies are rooted in the inflammation caused by sugar, flour, and caffeine in the brain, mental, and physical. If you get hit by a bus, that's not the same but the things that we call life and aging, those things are pretty much in the diet. Most of it is caused by sugar.

Mike, you've been doing this for a while. Have you seen any contraindications for somebody doing your program of getting rid of the sugar? With some diets, it's not good for everybody. I had a woman come to my office, she went all carnivore. She didn't eat anything but carnivore. Her whole leg swelled up. She got gout. Obviously, I don't think this is even close to the case. Do you see any contraindications with somebody cold turkey and sugar for a while?

I do see some pretty severe withdrawal symptoms that people think are something else and they run off to the doctor for. For the most part, we call ourselves diet agnostic. They can be vegetarian, carnivore, paleo, or keto. Whatever they think will work for them as long as it's a whole food. Now, I find that vegetarians have a little bit more difficulty because they have to get their calories from fruit, grains, and lagoons. It's a little bit harder but it's not impossible. I have a coach who's a vegan. She does a great job. The woman's mother used to own a bakery. She came apart. She still owns a bakery. I don't see any and I don't think there's a doctor on the planet that says, “You shouldn't quit sugar.”

Anyone is worth their license. We have a Quit Sugar Summit every year. We had this woman who is the founder of the Hypoglycemia Foundation many years ago. We had dedicated the whole summit to her. She’s an amazing woman. I asked her, “Do you think hypoglycemia is sugar addiction?” The hypoglycemia feelings seem like sugar addiction. They seem like sugar withdrawals in a lot of ways. She hemmed and hawed a little bit.

I don't think she's ready to make that but I believe it. For a lot of people, the diagnosis of hypoglycemia truly is sugar addiction. The keto flu you may have heard of, that is definitely sugar addiction. There's no doubt in my mind. That's sugar withdrawals. That switch over. I'm sure there are some but I’ve never run across. We got a lot of doctors in our program, to be honest with you too. They're trying to tell their folks to eat this and eat that, and they can't get off the sugar. We have a lot of success stories that are doctors.

I want to color this in a little bit with drug addiction and substance abuse. I've had so many great success stories on my show with drug addiction and alcoholism. I believe you say, you even might start with a sugar addiction.

There's no doubt in my mind. Eric Clapton said it. I told you at the beginning. Eric Clapton owns a treatment center now in Antigua. He spent $7 million of his own money to build. I believe with all my heart that sugar is the gateway drug. People learn unconsciously because it's so ubiquitous that if they ingest something, they change how they feel. In the early days, you don't realize it because it's so everywhere. You're not exerting any effort to score it or get it then it moves on to whatever else. I heard a story in one of my summits that somebody was eating orange aspirin. I remembered I used to eat them damn things. They tasted good. I didn't realize they were giving me a little buzz as well. 6 or 8 of them like a kid.

I believe it's the gateway drug and this is a bleeding-edge thought process because most people are not going to buy into this for a while until diagnostically, they can say that X causes Y. Hundred years from now, they used to give sugar to kids. Dr. Lustig, who was my mentor and was on a summit, he believes you need to be eighteen and have an ID to be able to buy sugar. I'm on that thought process. I believe that. I don’t think parents should feed this product to their children before a certain age that their brain development grows so fast between conception at age two. Those first thousand days are so important.

To answer your question, sugar is a gateway drug to other drugs. There's a lot of proof in this. There's another guy on our summit was David Wiss, who owns a thing here in Los Angeles called Nutrition In Recovery. He works with treatment centers and the treatment centers who adopt this stance in their food, don't allow them to smoke cigarettes, and don't give them coffee all day have a higher success rate. That's proven. It's hard to accept for folks and I never wanted to be the anti-candyman. I don't know how I got this moniker or how I got this gig. Maybe God put it in my hand, I don't know, but it's true. My work over the years has proven it to me. Somebody has got to break the news to people. It's a gateway drug.

Mike, what are some alternatives? I'm sure you have plenty of clients that are parents who raised and do so well in your program that they want to pass it onto their kids. How does that work with the kids and the sugar?

That's a tough one if they've already been exposed. There are two groups and they're not too many of the first group, which don't have it when they’re pregnant or young. Up to 3 or 4 years old, for the most part, you have 95% you're responsible for getting them fed. That would be simple. They don't have that built-in draw to change their state to get the dopamine hit. Once they've already been exposed and it hurts my heart a little bit but the first way is they feel guilt. They feel guilt that they gained 60 pounds. My mom gained 60 pounds when I was born. She was 105 pounds. She told me all she did was eat sugar.

I get that a lot from women. My ex had twins, 14 pounds of baby, and gained 21 pounds. Only six additional pounds. I hear the women who had a pregnancy, have kids, feel this wave of guilt, and don't want to pass it on, especially the ones as they mature in the program. They start to realize they were stone cold sugar addicts. They do not, as you said, want to pass this onto their kids. In order to do that, you have to speak to them honestly. Their kids are smart. You can't have a stash. It's like the airlines, you got to put your own oxygen mask on first.

You can't do as I do and don't do as I say, or whatever the hell that saying is. You can't do that. I figured it out with my mom. I knew where her stash was. You have to go first, you have to lead the way, and lead by example. We have a bunch of coaches who now have sugar-free kids or almost sugar-free. Wickedly, sugar-reduced anyway but it is possible and doable. Two other folks on our summit, Dr. Michael Goran, I knew this would be good for your folks, wrote a book called Sugarproof at SugarProofKids.com. It’s amazing how he's been studying childhood obesity for 30 years. Finally, he came out with this book. There's a lot of scientists like that who've been studying this stuff aren’t well known.

Michael, I love your story. Everything you're doing is great work. In the following years, you're going to be the guy that everyone is saying, “I told you so,” to everybody. It's great work. Where can people find you online, social media, and everywhere else?

Every twice a year, January and September, we put on the Quit Sugar Summit. It’s an awesome event. At SugarAddiction.com and on Facebook, @TheSugarFreeMan. @SugarFreeMan on Instagram, Twitter, and all that stuff. You'll find me.

Is your summit in the same place every year or does it change?

It's virtual. It's all online. It's all free. You can watch it.

When does that happen?

January and September.

Mike, at the end of every show, I like to ask all my guests what is one piece of advice that has resonated with you over the years that you would like to give the audience. It could be absolutely anything.

I always fall back to this. I don't think it's a fallback. I think it applies to everything. One of the things that we find the success stories for something that's hard and I think this is hard for most folks. If we trace back our success stories, no matter how, where, or what their life was in academia, sports, career, business, parenting, or motherhood, these folks were pioneers from their family. Not that they broke away from their family but they broke out and they were willing to join a new crowd.

Successful business people can't hang with if they've got a new mastermind. If you become a lawyer, you've got to run with that crowd. If you become a professional athlete, you've got to sometimes let your old friends go. You’ve got to up-level your game. If you're willing to be a pioneer, do something badly, do the research, see how it feels for you, and step out on faith. That's usually a good thing, no matter what you're trying to do.

Michael, thank you so much for coming on. I would love to have you back on the show any time. Maybe in a couple of months or after one of your summits. I would love to attend one. It sounds like great work.

I'd love to have you. We will get you on the summit one day. That would be great.

Thank you so much.

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